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Jan 04, 2007, 08:14 PM // 20:14
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#1 |
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No power in the verse
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: San Francisco, CA
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Tracking the TA metagame
The level of competition in TA has had a sudden rise since 1/2/2007. I would say about 35 to 50% of my matches since this time have been "good" matches which is by far the highest I have ever observed. I think there are a few contributing factors to this:
- The lower K value on the ladder means slower shifts in GvG guild rating. Playing several matches and seeing less movement in rating has driven some of the strongest players from some of the strongest guilds to fill some of their time with another PvP format. - The current disdain for 6v6 HA and lack of a high percentage of quality teams in HA (due in part to the 6v6 disdain) causes some of these GvG players to come to TA. - The introduction of the gladiator title. While this was several months ago that this happened, it is still another reason for the GvG players (many of whom have already attained a high HA rank) to come to TA to increase their gladiator level and hence their faction cap. Among some of the well recognized guild tags I have seen of late in TA are [Te], [OUT], [MB], and [SoF]. I'm sure there are several other strong guilds or strong players from strong guilds pugging in TA at the moment, but please forgive me for not recognizing your tags as I have not GvGed since late September and do not know all the new tags of guilds that have come to prominance or guilds that have reformed under a new tag. Anyway, now to the main point of this thread. TA has always gone through cycles of time where it has been more competitive and other times where competition is low. These cycles have always had a direct impact on how fast the metagame shifts. At times of low competition, the TA metagame moves slowly and little change occurs simply because a much higher percentage of teams are being fed into TA after winning in 10 matches in RA and frequent skill adjustments or completely switching builds are not necessary for the smaller percentage of strong teams in this environment. At times of higher competition, change happens much faster as there are fewer RA teams in TA and many more competitive teams fighting to keep an edge on their opposition. From GW members that feel like they have a grasp on the TA metagame, I would like you to post the following in this thread: 1. What are the common individual templates or team build combinations that you are observing that you have to be prepared for in order to win consistently in TA? 2. What are some of the counters you have run or have considered running in an attempt to counter the common trends you are observing in TA? Example: shields up to help counter all the rampage spear chuckers and interrupt bow rangers (typically apply/burning arrow rangers). 3. What previously common individual templates or team builds are falling out of favor or being phased out of the metagame? Basically, I want this thread to be a case study of how the metagame evolves over time and as a guide to avid TA players who may have taken a break from TA for a period of time to play other PvP formats or to attend more to issues in life. |
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Jan 04, 2007, 09:56 PM // 21:56
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#2 |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: kansas city, MO
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I'd say the higher level of competition in TA atm is due to people becoming more settled in the meta since NF came out. After plenty of adjustment time more people are learning how to use NF skills more effectively in team builds, so you can't go in with the normal simple TA strategies and expect to win the majority of your matches. Your stated contributions are valid, but I don't think they contribute anymore now than they have any other time. Te, OUT, MB and SoF aren't new to me in TA.
I'm not sure why I'm doing this, but here you go.. Builds you should be aware of before going into TA: - Physically loaded teams like dual thump are a no brainer prep anymore, but spear chuckers and burning arrow rangers are becoming popular as well. Utility characters in these builds can be anything from a spirit spammer to a blind surge Me/E. - Dual necro teams with spoil victor and reapers mark can be very nasty. This template is quite versatile and can include things like sig of humility, purge signet, well of darkness and wards just on the necros. The third slot can include a physical character such as an avatar dervish, shadow prison sin, thumper, bow ranger, etc.. I've also seen the third slot occupied by a mesmer with sig of humility, which allows the necros to be more creative. I'm going to say that those 2 templates are the heaviest hitters I've encountered.. there are a few other templates that one should be aware of as well. - Deadly haste squirt gun teams. 3 water eles with deadly paradox + deadly haste and ice spear spam makes for ridiculous sustained DPS. - Mystic sandstorm spike teams. Consisting of 2 to 3 dervishes with a maxed MS dmg bonus + dmg from mirage cloak. It's roughly 200 spike dmg per dervish. - Chain gale + savannah heat. Bring your own hot dogs and s'mores. More may be added to that list over time. Countering Builds: - A good balanced build rarely needs to run a counter for anyone. Most of the time a loss could be a victory with the correct strategy. More insight into that philosphy on this subject can be read in the Build Consistency section of this article http://www.guildwars.com/competitive...goldandnew.php if you haven't read it already. - Of course, I'm not perfect, and I have ran counters to certain builds for a few different reasons: one being spite; another being i knew they were the only team to beat at the time; another being that they were so heavily loaded into one strategy that one skill was needed to break them. - Some examples of these situations: the first situation happens so rarely that i can't even recall an example.. but i'm sure i've done it at some point. The second: I recall one night when tA was running a hexway build.. we were confident they were the only team in at that time that would be a challenge, so we brought NR on a magebane ranger to give us an edge. The third: SIGNET OF MYSTIC WRATH. - As far as countering something like spear chuckers... positioning against projectile dmg > shields up. The reason this build has been as successful as it is, is because of all the wards and wells that have been brought to deal with dual thump teams.... HAHAHA I have a spear now! Ward against that, bitch! Also, it's not even so much the piercing dmg that kills in that build... it's more like the disrupting lunge on both pets =,=. Common templates being phased out of the metagame: - Hmmmmmmmm.... every template that existed before NF. - I've seen post NF builds that have been tried and didn't last long. I haven't seen any post NF builds that have been successful at any point being forced out of the meta yet. Last edited by Absum; Jan 10, 2007 at 09:21 AM // 09:21.. |
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Jan 04, 2007, 10:40 PM // 22:40
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#3 | |||
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No power in the verse
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: San Francisco, CA
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Awesome contribution Absum. Keep the posts coming all.
Quote:
Quote:
If I catch anyone I know running this build in TA, then I'll have to seriously question their mental health. Quote:
Sigh, it's just another shield I need to bring with me now every time I roll a caster for TA (+10 armor v blunt shield, +10 armor v fire shield, and now a +10 armor v piercing shield). Blinding surge is a nice counter to the dual disrupting lunge spam. Also, you need good condition removal as 2 rampage spear chuckers output a lot of degen in addition to all their damage. The only downside of the rampage spear chuckers is the fact that they lose hammer bash, so their deep wound is a little more conditional and losing knockdown is nothing to sneeze at since knockdown is such a powerful shutdown tool. |
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Jan 04, 2007, 10:52 PM // 22:52
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#4 |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Apr 2006
Guild: vD
Profession: Mo/
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dual b surge shutdowns with a bestial mauning thumper seems to be the way to go now as well.
i must admit that the times when balanced, which takes most skills to master, was widely used are over, unfortunately. it's all about the pressure now. and about the right build. in other words, gimmicks are the hit. 3 fear me+drunken blow+steady stance warrs and a paragorn healer/conds remover are just another example. it is funny how 2 spells could own entire build like that, but hey, who's gonna take vocal minority or sv just for that? hardly anyone. syncrhoed teams in RA with 2 paragorns are lovely too. you can't do ANYTHING vs that with 3 melee on your team...but then again, vocal minority on the paras and it's gg. I had such fight...lasted over 7 minutes till i finally couldn't keep up anymore with drawing, cond removal and healing. and my team wasn't bad, we just had complete build disadvantage :<. anyway, to go back to TA builds...might as well counter gimmicks with another gimmick. might as well go dual migraine with thump for all the b surge spammers. @divine, don't underestimate savanahh and gale combo. it may not be strong on its own, but add a thump to that or any other decent damage dealing melee charr/shutdown/air ele/whatever, and it soon gets nasty. dealt with it several times already...gotta love balanced stance ^_^ also, ele won't just gale you and then watch you burn in the aoe spell...you get liquid flame on you then, immolate, maybe meteor or even rodgorts...but the e management must be really sucky. to sum up though..if i compare the current metagame to the one in times when i started TAing (long long time ago...), i must say that there is a lot more different kinds builds of builds around now making everything more interesting, but at the same time, most of those builds require little to no skill, so i don't know whether it actually turned for the better or the worse. Last edited by urania; Jan 04, 2007 at 11:20 PM // 23:20.. |
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Jan 04, 2007, 11:28 PM // 23:28
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#5 | |||
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: kansas city, MO
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Quote:
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Provided all 4 signets are cast successfully, the target's health will be at 10 after the spike. A good monk might be able to throw in a ZB before the 1 second follow up spike is cast, or be able to precast ZB in anticipation of the spike. In either case the target will be back up to ~240 when it is almost immediately hit by 4 banishes for 232 damage. That's how narrow of an escape a target with more than average health has even with a monk that can catch the spike with the most powerful 3/4 second heal. A reversal may be able to be thrown in somewhere into the mix of the spike to almost insure survival, but take into account a target that may have been wanded down below it's max health before the spike... pre-reversaling, prot spirit and higher health are all simple enough solutions. I'm not saying that build is OMG how2beet. I just thought it should be taken a bit more seriously than you implied. The main issue with that build is the possible defense it can have. You need quite a few enchant removals and a lot of degen to take down a fairly coordinated team. I used to bring gaze of contempt on my monk to wreck their day with little effort  At any rate, I think most teams gave up on it due to the extremely long matches that can occur. I guess i'm just in a debating mood. Quote:
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Jan 06, 2007, 06:19 AM // 06:19
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#6 |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Yup, two bsurge mesmers. One monk shutdown, one caster shutdown.
Those Me/E are pretty fun to play, not going to lie. I'd have to say though, out of the more experienced teams the at least one of the necro bars gets ran the most. (Obviously excluding a monk and thumpers) |
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Jan 06, 2007, 07:17 PM // 19:17
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#7 | |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Nov 2005
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Quote:
Please nerf thumpers so that I can use my warrior again, I never even play him and my ranger's hammers get more use than his bows. |
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Jan 08, 2007, 08:25 PM // 20:25
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#8 | |
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No power in the verse
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: San Francisco, CA
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Builds you should be aware of before going into TA:
- Hex spam teams that have two spirit spammers to abuse the broken energy management of necromancers. One hex spammer is obviously a reaper's mark and another is obviously a spoil victor. In addition to the obvious hexes from the templates (spoil victor, reaper's mark, faintheartedness, life siphon, parasitic bond, and mark of subversion) are some additional annoying hexes from some teams like soul barbs, siphon speed, and scourge healing and/or scourge enchantment. The build consists of 3 necromancers (one of which is a N/Rt) and a Rt/Mo. The spirits consist of displacement, shelter, union, pain, bloodsong, shadowsong, anguish, and wanderlust (I believe that is the complete list, but there may be others). Their healing, hex, and condition removal is distributed across at least two or three characters. Countering Builds: - To give yourself the best fighting chance against such a hex/spirit team, I recommend running a balanced control build featuring at least two characters (because having one is not enough) that can completely lock down a spirit spammer from getting any spirits placed. Shutting down their spirits significantly limits their offense and their defense. If you allow them to get their spirits placed you are in trouble no matter how much hex removal you have, because then you waste a lot of time hunting and killing them and the hexers are then free to spam hexes without any regard to energy. Communicate as to which player is going to lock out a spirit spammer. Character templates that can completely lock down a spirit spammer include: - a rampage as one thumper with disrupting lunge, distracting blow, and hammer bash. Train one spirit spammer mercilessly and use these three skills to never let them get a spirit down. - a bow ranger with distracting shot, savage shot, perhaps debillitating shot, and perhaps even natural stride. Don't let the spirit spammer deny you line of sight and interrupt them mercilessly. - an ele with gale and either air attunement or glyph of lesser energy. Gale the spirit spammer at least 2/3 (i.e. as late as possible to make them waste as much time as possible -- just don't miss) through each of their spirit activations. Switch up to higher energy sets for brief moments when exhaustion begins to mount to allow you to use gale. - a mesmer with gale and glyph of lesser energy. Same principle as the air ele. Running one of these types of character templates is probably not enough to win against these teams. Two certainly will net you a win properly executed of course. If you choose to run 3 of these control character templates, then more power to you and have one of them focus on interrupting as many hexes as possible while the other two lock down their previously communicated respective spirit spammers. Last words on executing the counter: - On all TA maps, they can set up the vast majority of their spirits before you can even have the chance to get in range. Of course, they put up displacement first to mess up interrupts from bow rangers and rampage thumpers. It is vital that you do not fight them in their domain and that you force them to come to you. If they have displacement up, then move far enough out of range so that they are out of displacement and force them to come to you. - Be the more patient team. Their build is an immobile camping build and tied highly to the position of their spirits. Given this fact, they are probably willing to wait a while to win some matches. Your build is more mobile and you have to be willing to out-patience them to ensure a win though. - If your monk has veil maintain up to 2 or 3 veils and keep them maintained (since their offense consists solely of hexes and offensive spirits) during the match to slow their rate of incoming hexes. If your monk is divert hexes, then ask your teammates to tell you the moment they get 3 hexes (at least two of which need to be "priority" hexes that need removal) on them. - If using a bow ranger, then try to fight in the more open areas of the map with a minimal amount of obstructions. Bring a longbow on one of your weapon sets to interrupt displacement from longer range. Quote:
As for the need of enchantment removal to counter the defense that a well defended SoMW spike can possess in TA, your statement is not true. Gaze of contempt is certainly not needed and is a specific counter for SoMW that is not useful against any other team. I hate bringing specific counters and would much prefer to bring general counters. Shatter enchantment is an example of a general counter that works great against SoMW teams as well. Lastly, you can tear through SoMW defenses even without any enchantment removal as long as you have a degen component (either hexes or conditions) and have your melee character (if you have 2, then pick one) train their life barrier guy and get his health to drop below 50%. Once the life barriers drop interrupt attempts they make to put them back up and their team becomes a lot more "naked". |
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Jan 11, 2007, 12:08 AM // 00:08
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#9 |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Jun 2005
Guild: The Kansas City Hotsteppers [KCHS]
Profession: P/
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You really only need Distracting+Savage to interrupt everything a spirit spammer does. Against teams that pre-use displacement, if you have a ranger you can have him peck away at something with a longbow to kill displacement, then keep interrupting the ritualist from afar until all the spirits expire. At longbow range spirit attacks are easily dodgeable and you can manage any hexes they throw your way. And with Natural Stride and a longbow, sometimes you can surprise the ritualist by getting a long range interrupt off to take out displacement.
Sadly bow rangers aren't very useful in TA right now, with blinding and damage overload everywhere. |
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Jan 11, 2007, 01:42 AM // 01:42
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#10 | |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: kansas city, MO
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Spiritual Pain and Sandstorm are also nice to have when facing one of those spirit camping hexway grief builds.
Quote:
I will admit that gaze of contempt is overkill, but so is saying it's not useful against any other team. It can be very effective in several different situations, especially when it's the only enchant removal in your build. It should also be known that when I brought that skill, I was running into these teams nearly 1 out of every 5 matches, and people were trying to make that build work in every possible way that they could. 2 copies of Life Barrier make it difficult to drop the "life barrier guy" below 50%. Song of Concentration makes it slightly more difficult to interrupt the spike. Ward of Stability makes it more difficult to knock things down. Given, that IS backtracking the meta, but note that i did say "used to" As far as my statement not being true.. You got me there, because I said "and" instead of "or". Good catch x) |
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Jan 12, 2007, 08:21 AM // 08:21
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#11 | |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: North Carolina, US
Guild: The Arctic Marauders [TAM]
Profession: W/
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Quote:
They setup the spirits first, then pull them out with draw spirits. Yes, that means while you are getting hex overloaded by the necromancers, the rit is sitting in the back setting up spirits and then running up and drawing them. Displacement usually isn't even setup in the frontline/midline... And on the SoMW spike teams, yeah it's definatly not as easy to take them out as you make it Divine  , not vs. a good one atleast. It's easy to say a strategy, but try to get the Life Barrier monk down to half health, that in itself is rediculous....As to some of the questions in the main topic, a good balanced team can deal with most teams. Just make sure to have some interupts, blinds, some snares and some pressure skills and you should be fine. Obviously the more experienced a team is, the better they will do, so the builds are endless. |
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Jan 21, 2007, 08:40 AM // 08:40
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#12 |
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Academy Page
Join Date: Feb 2006
Guild: [soLo]
Profession: Me/
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gosh you people are smart and all... but maybe its just because HA is so unpopular? I never did stand HA/Tombs.
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Jan 21, 2007, 03:11 PM // 15:11
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#13 |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Apr 2006
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I don't understand what ganks just said. But I think he called us smart?
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Jan 22, 2007, 06:45 PM // 18:45
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#14 |
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Academy Page
Join Date: Feb 2006
Guild: [soLo]
Profession: Me/
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Yea, well my point is that maybe we look into the details too much and the reason its more popular is a lot more simpler.
Maybe not. |
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Jan 31, 2007, 11:40 PM // 23:40
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#15 |
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Elite Guru
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Manchester, England
Guild: SMS/Victrix
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I find TA to be really strange, sometimes it can be really good fun, with proper challenging matches, other times it's facing SoMW and Spirit builds. Obvious why these builds are run, but it's still quite dull. SoMW spike are the worse, if on your 32 skills there isn't a great deal of enchantment removal you're going to have a bit of a crappy time against it. If you have a Grenths you'll roll it in about 1 minute, bit too Rock, Paper, Scissors for my liking.
I'm finding Banishing Strike to be one of my favourite skills right now (HA, GvG, and TA, and hell, Hero Battles, it's better than Razah for sure!) We tend to have problems vs SoMW, and quite a few other gimmicks really because we have a real grab-and-go approach to TA which costs us at times. |
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Feb 08, 2007, 05:24 PM // 17:24
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#16 | |
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No power in the verse
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: San Francisco, CA
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Quote:
As for the new metagame forming around the new skill balance, I only got to play some TA this past weekend and noticed a mixture of types of melee being used -- some assassins, some dervishes, some hammer warriors, some sword warriors, and some axe warriors. Virtually no rampage thumpers. This is a good thing for TA IMO. While the rampage thumper with distracting blow, disrupting lunge, and hammer bash was the most disruptive melee template I've ever played personally, playing almost every match with a rampage thumper on your team and against at least one rampage thumper on the opposing team got real old fast. It was easy to meta against though when designing builds I haven't gotten to play TA at all during the week as I have been making a push toward my Tyria Explorer title (99.4% now), so anybody who has been getting to play quite of bit of TA lately might be able to answer the following questions: - Is there a dominant melee form emerging in TA? One type of melee that is getting run more than the others from the list I mentioned? - What are the dominant forms of anti-melee templates being used now that blinding surge ang gale took such big hits? - Are there any specific team combinations to be aware of before entering TA?
__________________
Team Arena Moderator Said the joker to the thief. |
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Feb 08, 2007, 05:52 PM // 17:52
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#17 |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Nov 2005
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On the dominant melee, I'd have to say that there is none. Everything is being run, from old-school warriors to form dervishes to assassins with their massively buffed chains. I even got to pull out the old backbreaker warrior the other day in a hex build we were playing.
As for teams that you need to watch out for, hexes are still pretty strong atm. They also happen to have the most effective anti-melee of the moment built into them. |
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Feb 08, 2007, 06:15 PM // 18:15
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#18 |
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ǝuoʞoɯ
Join Date: May 2006
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no real dominant melee imo. im seeing still quite a few thumpers, grenth dervs, mel dervs, brainless SP assasins (very popular, most ragequit if you remove the hex, or just continue smashing their buttons without hitting with attacks), hammer warriors, old shock warriors..guess thats it.
to say the truth, balanced is making a nice comeback. besides that, theres random spikes (rits usually), and of course hexway. |
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Feb 08, 2007, 10:44 PM // 22:44
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#19 |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: kansas city, MO
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How about those hammergons?!
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Feb 15, 2007, 10:43 AM // 10:43
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#20 |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Aussie Trolling Crew - Diplomatic Embassy
Guild: I Have Three Pennies [Pnny] - forever in my heart <3
Profession: R/
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Gogo hex spam!
No, seriously, every single team that I meet in TA these days seems to be some sort of hex-pressure. I'm now seriously considering running NR/Tranq. |
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